Remember when we used to be football fans?
Posted by: thelightblues on: 3 September, 2008
Do you remember when we were just football fans? Do you remember when you used to hear about football on football phone-ins or read about football on the football pages?
You know – how good or bad your left-back is, or whether your team should move to a diamond formation or stay with a flat middle four.
Now you are just as likely to hear views on the Reformation and the political situation in Ireland from sports journalists who still think Martin Luther was a Black Civil Rights activist and that the Dutch Blue Guards are a new Rangers fan group.
I know there are very important social issues out there, and they need to be discussed, but I can’t be the only one a little tired of hearing ignorant callers to phone-in shows pushing their own petty agendas while pretending to be morally superior, or reading journalists who couldn’t spell Sociology without a dictionary, giving us their views on societal problems that were there before football was invented and would still be there if every football club in Scotland was shut down tomorrow.
I’ll repeat that issues of sectarianism, racism and general thuggery are obviously important, but it cannot be good for our game to have become so parochial that we use football to settle debates that should be debated and discussed in the public arena.
It is also not good for the soul. Where is the joy? Where is the fun? It’s only a game after all.
(photo by markhillary)
13 Responses to "Remember when we used to be football fans?"
No Derek, Football is where we do not see sectarianism (I presume you mean that) as it is.
We make non-football issues football-related, we hear the songs of other teams and not our own and actually mistake songs for sectarianism.
I know that people read what they want to read, but I deliberately said twice on the above article that they were important, the point is that it should be discussed by those who wish it to be stopped, and not by those who only want their side to look best, or dare I say win.
And if you want to debate the floor is yours…
Im sorry, but at what point did ‘The famine’s over; Why don’t you go home’ become a song about football?
It is a disgusting attack on people who are descendants of victims of a holocaust. Yes, you read correctly, a holocaust. As a historian, I have seen records and journals from the period, and it is a fact that the other crops and livestock were exported from Ireland, thus creating starvation on a countrywide scale. So the famine was acerbated by the government of the time. Therefore, if this song was to be sung to black South Africans, would there be an outcry, of course. But in Scotland, The Irish Catholic population are fair game, and anything can be said about their race, or religion. Good grief, imagine Phil Lynnott’s chances in Scotland. We are a racist, sectarian, anti-Irish country, and we shoud all be ashamed of ourselves for the treatment these people have had to endure since they arrived in this country.
Stevo R,
I think you have perfectly illustrated my point. We are so quick to point out the faults of others but never ever condemn the faults of our ‘tribe’.
I mean, is this where I am supposed to point out that “you sing about the IRA and blah blah”? Is this where the cycle of anger and hatred goes around once more?
Very few people really want an end to sectarianism. They only want to show how bad the other lot are so they can carry on their own blend of hatred, and it’s pathetic.
It would be nice if football could be football and social issues left out. The supporters of the old firm who participate in such song are no better than the other. The fact is though that whether or not there were sectarian issue surrounding the old firm the supporters would find differences to bring up the atmosphere surrounding an old firm game. The fact that there is this social difference among the clubs just makes it an easy topic for the winding up of the other.
So to those who lay the blame on the other club without the mention of the short comings of their own club are nothing but hypocrites.
Stevo R. I agree with the blogger that all you have done is prove his point. Before it was really approriate, you accelerated the debate’s tone to one of savage outrage and extreme comparisons.
For you to misuse the word holocaust in such a sickening manner beggars belief.
To associate the Celtic support with the decendants of the famillies of the millions of innocent Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, blacks etc who were systematically and deliberately murdered in the name of ethnic cleansing is staggering.
You, as a “historian” may wish to check your facts.
The vast majority of people living in Scotland of Irish descent are desended from people who were already here at the time of the famine or who arrived later. There was very little cross-pollination of the populaces of Scotland and Ireland during the height of the famine. In short most Celtic fans are not descended from famine victims. (which makes the song seem silly too in fairness but I bet it still annoys you)
Also, the famine was about a lot of things but it was mainly about crop failure. The fact that the government of the day did little to help and even exacerbated the problem, while relevant, must be seen in context. The feudal sytem still operated in much of Europe to the extant that many peasants lived in abject poverty while the wealthy middle and upper classes lived in comfort. Rural areas were far more vulnerable than cities as their econonies relied almost entirely on agriculture.
Your remarks about Phil Lynott were actually quite amusing. Too bizarre and irrelevant to be given any credence. Only laughter. At you.
That said, though. I agree. Can we no just talk about the fitba?
Maybe I should have spell-checked that before I posted it!
For an interesting blog on this topic check this out.
http://ifyouknowtheirhistory.blogspot.com/2008/08/against-disneyfication-of-football.html
(Btw I have no association with this site I just thought it was a good blog)
Does the fact that Irish people were already in Scotland, or arrived considerably later, make any difference to the fact that many people had, and still do, have relatives who suffered during The Great Hunger.
I think the words of Lady Jane Wilde, the mother of one of the greatest literary minds ever describe it best.
THE FAMINE YEAR
Weary man, what reap ye? — “Golden corn for the stranger.”
What sow ye? — “Human corses that wait for the avenger.”
Fainting forms, hunger-stricken, what see ye in the offing?
“Stately ships to bear our food away amid the stranger’s scoffing.”
There’s a proud array of soldiers — what do they round your door?
“They guard our master’s granaries from the thin hands of the poor.”
Pale mothers, wherefore weeping? “Would to God that we were dead –
Our children swoon before us, and we cannot give them bread!”
Little children, tears are strange upon your infant faces,
God meant you but to smile within your mother’s soft embraces.
“Oh! we know not what is smiling, and we know not what is dying;
But we’re hungry, very hungry, and we cannot stop our crying.
And some of us grow cold and white — we know not what it means;
But as they lie beside us we tremble in our dreams.”
There’s a gaunt crowd on the highway — are you come to pray to man,
With hollow eyes that cannot weep, and for words your faces wan?
“No; the blood is dead within our veins – we care not now for life;
Let us die hid in the ditches, far from children and from wife!
We cannot stay to listen to their raving famished cries –
Bread! Bread! Bread! and none to still their agonies.
We left an infant playing with her dead mother’s hand:
We left a maiden maddened by the fever’s scorching brand:”
Better, maiden, thou wert strangled in thy own dark-twisted tresses!
Better, infant, thou wert smothered in thy mother’s first caresses.
“We are fainting in our misery, but God will hear our groan;
Yet, if fellow-men desert us, will He hearken from His throne?
Accursed are we in our own land, yet toil we still and toil;
But the stranger reaps our harvest — the alien owns our soil.
O Christ! how have we sinned, that on our native plains
We perish homeless, naked, starved, with branded brow like Cain’s?
Dying, dying wearily, with a torture sure and slow –
Dying as a dog would die, by the wayside as we go.
“One by one they’re falling round us, their pale faces to the sky;
We’ve no strength left to dig them graves — there let them lie.
The wild bird, if he’s stricken, is mourned by the others,
But we — we die in Christian land, — we die amid our brothers,
In the land which God has given, like a wild beast in his cave,
Without a tear, a prayer, a shroud, a coffin, or a grave.
Ha! but think ye the contortions on each livid face ye see,
Will not be read on Judgement-day by eyes of Deity?
“We are wretches, famished, scorned, human tools to build your pride,
But God will yet take vengeance for the souls for whom Christ died.
Now in your hour of pleasure — bask ye in the world’s caress;
But our whitening bones against ye will rise as witnesses,
From the cabins and the ditches in their charred, uncoffined masses,
For the Angel of the Trumpet will know them as he passes.
A ghastly spectral army, before great God we’ll stand,
And arraign ye as our murderers, O spoilers of our land!”
Stevo R
I can only repeat that you have proven my point.
The above really has no place on a football forum, but I will allow it because you were part of the debate here – and although I disagree with much of what you say – you have been civil.
Thanks for giving me my platform. I’ll get off of my soapbox now. I am sorry but ignoring racism does not make it go away, I know, I support a team whose fans believe it okay to wear KKK outfits to games. By the way, I do believe that this is an informative forum, and not full of the paranoia and bile that is found on the likes of KDS, Huddleboard and FF.
To conclude:
In the words of Pastor Niemoller
“In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.”
Once again thank you for the time and consideration you have given my post. You I believe to be a good person.
Believe me, I really do want to log in here and see a football debate but when are you, Stevo R, going to stop trying to associate Celtic fans with holocaust victims to try to get sympathy. That is just ridiculous man.
Football it is then. A wee rant maybe.
But a football rant.
I had the misfortune of reading Charlie Nicholas’ page in the Express today. He had two stories about Rangers players. One about how he hoped that since Kirk Broadfoot, a player he clearly does not rate by his ill judged remarks, has been called up on Scotland duty this wouldn’t signal a new rash of Bertie Vogts style caps.
The other was also disparaging about Broadfoot, again, and Adam. I can’t quite recall but it was something along the lines of how they weren’t good enough to beat Celtic who, in turn, should be ashamed of themselves.
Having had the further misfortune of enduring Mr Nicholas’ dubious company after a charity function one night a few years ago I don’t expect much more than barely disguised knee-jerk anti-Rangers polemic.
It did, though, call into sharp focus the reported remarks of George Burley who also, it seems, felt fit to damn Big Kirk with faint praise. I think/hope that he was trying to set Kirk up as an example of how hard work can help develop ability and compensate for lack of “natural ability” to still, regardless of how good a guy was when he started off, share the same great heights of accomplishment and recognition with others regarded as “good players”.
I respect Broadfoot, for his work ethic and his ability. He’s still at a very young age for a top flight defender at such a big club. He puts me in mind of Ted McMinn sometimes, with his puzzling-but-effective ball control techniques, but he works his arse off and I take my hat off to the lad.
It seems that the media sees Rangers’ young players as fair game. This is not unexpected but I just thought I’d mention it.
In the meantime, good luck to Scotland and fingers crossed for some star performances from Gers players. Nae injuries lads!
And Big Kirk? You enjoy yersel big man and keep on striving.
1 | Derek Dundersund
4 September, 2008 at 12:42 am
Yes, it is better to sweep these matters under the carpet….Football is one of the few occasions when it is seen in the open for all that it is. To ignore these issues is to bury your head in the sand.